IF YOU WERE A SLAVE OR A FREED SLAVE WOULD IT BE LOGICAL TO ATTACK AND REJECT THOSE WHO CONSTANTLY PRAYED AND WORKED FOR YOUR FREEDOM?
4/29/2013
Several years ago I had a conversation with an inmate in the Georgia Prisons System who had fallen under the influence of the Chinese House Church founders named WATCHMAN NEE and WITNESS LEE. I think this is probably the only reason I know who these people are. Witness Lee, actually created the "house church movement" based upon the work of his mentor, Watchman Nee. Watchman Nee owned and worked in a factory in pre-communist China, from what I gather was never a "religious figure" of that time. The House Church Movement (an underground Christian movement) in communist China is logical. However in its expression in the West and in freer China has of course already splintered into muti-groups and associations and some of them have become very radical. But the hallmark of all of them is the violent and dogmatic rejection of the Visible (or as they say Institutional) Church, believing that their theological presumptions are absolute truth, and that all realty of THE CHURCH in the free world, the great witness and deposit of the Faith, outside their particular experience is false. They believe there are other Christians, but that no Visible Church upon the earth is truly an expression of The Apostolic Church against which the gates of hell have not prevailed since the time of the Apostles. For them such a prospect, though visibly present, is impossible.
Watchman Nee wrote over one hundred massive volumes of convoluted theology, sixty some odd refined and published in English. His writings brim with an overt spiritualism that is overwhelming page to page. The sheer volume of writing dwarfs the collective writings of the Eastern Saints, known as the Philokalia. It makes prolific Church writers like Origen and Saint Thomas Aquinas look virtually mute. In his isolated spirituality, creating his own form of Christian belief in pre-communist China he had limited resources and few influences, none that represented the fullness of The Faith once and for all Delivered unto the Saint which is contained in the Church. He like so many cobbled together "a Gospel" not the completeness of "The Gospel."
Several years ago I had a conversation with an inmate in the Georgia Prisons System who had fallen under the influence of the Chinese House Church founders named WATCHMAN NEE and WITNESS LEE. I think this is probably the only reason I know who these people are. Witness Lee, actually created the "house church movement" based upon the work of his mentor, Watchman Nee. Watchman Nee owned and worked in a factory in pre-communist China, from what I gather was never a "religious figure" of that time. The House Church Movement (an underground Christian movement) in communist China is logical. However in its expression in the West and in freer China has of course already splintered into muti-groups and associations and some of them have become very radical. But the hallmark of all of them is the violent and dogmatic rejection of the Visible (or as they say Institutional) Church, believing that their theological presumptions are absolute truth, and that all realty of THE CHURCH in the free world, the great witness and deposit of the Faith, outside their particular experience is false. They believe there are other Christians, but that no Visible Church upon the earth is truly an expression of The Apostolic Church against which the gates of hell have not prevailed since the time of the Apostles. For them such a prospect, though visibly present, is impossible.
Watchman Nee wrote over one hundred massive volumes of convoluted theology, sixty some odd refined and published in English. His writings brim with an overt spiritualism that is overwhelming page to page. The sheer volume of writing dwarfs the collective writings of the Eastern Saints, known as the Philokalia. It makes prolific Church writers like Origen and Saint Thomas Aquinas look virtually mute. In his isolated spirituality, creating his own form of Christian belief in pre-communist China he had limited resources and few influences, none that represented the fullness of The Faith once and for all Delivered unto the Saint which is contained in the Church. He like so many cobbled together "a Gospel" not the completeness of "The Gospel."
Those who experience the presence of the Holy Spirit in prison, are foolish to reject those who have held HIS presence in freedom. For freedom is not Liberty, but rather the furnace of the tempter, where one is able to chose right and wrong in a casual way. Right and Wrong decisions in prison are clearer, and the choices more striking as to what is LIFE producing and what is Death producing. In "prison states" where Secular States have taken control of Church administrations, like in China, and previously in Russia, the integrity of the institution has to be viewed with suspicion. Even today there are problems with the close ties between some national governments and national Churches. You can't become a successor to the Apostles (a bishop) by killing a Bishop or by a secular government appointing a bishop. But despite the Church's institutional failings her apostolic reality remains. When those Christians who have experienced persecution, who when free turn on those who have maintained the Church in Liberty, it shows a real form of insanity, a post-persecution syndrome, unable to respond to the prayers and works that have helped saved them.
Here is a demonstration of this spirit in a young oriental man, certain that the apostolic church is evil.
A Ug
Okay, so how is the
Greek Orthodox Church different from the Roman Catholic Church? and
how so?
11:16pm
Piano Butch Robinson
It would take a book to
explain it to you and still you would not understand it, since you
have no experience of it. Or do you? Have you had experience of the
Roman Catholic Church?
11:17pm
A Ug
Why wouldn't I
understand?
11:18pm
Piano Butch Robinson
Answer the question.
Have you had experience of the Roman Catholic Church?
11:19pm
A Ug
I attend a Franciscan
University...so I have some familiarity with the Roman Catholic
Church.
11:21pm
Piano Butch Robinson
So you are not
catholic, have never studied the foundations of the Apostolic Church,
have spent some time listening to . . . I'm guessing . . . assembly
of God or sum such preachers and because you attend a quasi-catholic
institution you think you have an understanding of the experience of
God in Jesus Christ present in HIS church???
11:24pm
A Ug
I know that I have the
experience of knowing Christ. In brother Yun's book, "The
Heavenly Man," God was impacting lives in I believe the
south-west Chinese area where people were living off of knowing Jesus
soley through the Scriptures. Miracles were happening and everything.
Then, when various Christian literature and doctrine other than the
Bible was incorporated amongst the sola scripture congregation, the
body of Christ suffered a huge division. I haven't read the book for
a summer, but it is an amazing book...so yes, I am certain.
11:31pm
A Ug
Keep guessing. I do not
attend a Assembly of God church. No, I don't trust in an institution.
I trust in Christ.
11:33pm
Piano Butch Robinson
I know many people who
came to Christ through the scriptures, but when faced with the
reality of the physical presence of Christ's Body the Church upon the
earth, didn't reject Christ's Bride, rather entered into deeper
faith; Just as Cornelius and his household had already received the
Baptism of the Holy Spirit, but did not reject the Baptism of the
Apostles and entry into the visible and apostolic church. There is a
sea of "literature" out there - most of it Protestant. But
the fullness of the Faith is held in Christ's Church, where HE,
Himself breathed the Holy Spirit upon its founders and promised that
the gates of hell would not prevail against her. That Church is
"apostolic" and not "institutional".
11:35pm
A Ug
I was going to share a
silly experience I had. But, I have like 20 minutes to complete this
paper.
11:36pm
Piano Butch Robinson
I understand. I'm going
to link a paper I want you to read when you have time. Since you are
intelligent and already forming theological ideas. It is about the
methods of forming those ideas.
11:38pm
Piano Butch Robinson
I wrote this decades
ago, but it will give us an framework - maybe even a language to talk
in the future.
America's Orthodox
Christian Chaplain: The Three Paths of Theology/Spirituality
americaschaplain.blogspot.com
12:13am
Piano Butch Robinson
Adron, I saw that you
are into music. Me too. Here is one of several recordings I made a
few years back. I love to write music. I have two jazz pieces and
another semi-classical piece ready to record, and hope I get to
before the Lord calls me home.
Elise Fantasia - Bond
Robin Pianist, Composer
www.youtube.com
Takeoff on a theme by
Beethoven, written by Bond Robin (aka, Piano Butch, aka Marion
Robinson).
12:25am
A Ug
Well, I have to say
that your post is really heavy. Good research!
12:29am
Piano Butch Robinson
I read a short bio of
Brother Yun's life - a wonderful testimony of the presence of the
Holy Spirit, witnessing the reality of Jesus Christ in Atheistic
China. God's hand is not shortened. Here is what the Church says
about such people:
"Inasmuch as the
earthly and visible Church is not the fullness and completeness of
the whole Church which the Lord has appointed to appear at the final
judgment of all creation, she acts and knows only within her own
limits; and (according to the words of Paul the Apostle, to the
Corinthians, 1 Cor. 5. 12) does not judge the rest of mankind, and
only looks upon those as excluded, that is to say, not belonging to
her, who exclude themselves."
Be careful Adron, that
in your limited understanding of the reality of Christ's Body upon
the earth that you do not "exclude yourself."
12:31am
A Ug
Are you implying that I
need to be a part of a certain denomination to be a part of the body
of Christ? As long as I am serving Christ, I am in Christ.
12:32am
Piano Butch Robinson
The Church knows
nothing of Denominations - that is protestant ignorance.
12:33am
A Ug
Like I have to be a
part of an Orthodox church? I know that I can't be a part of the
Roman Orthodox Church. I just can't do it. I'll look into int and
I'll read your articles, but people like Brother Yun are certainly
not excluded from Christ.
12:33am
Piano Butch Robinson
Letters From the Gulag
: What is the Church?
lettersfromthegulag.blogspot.com
12:34am
Piano Butch Robinson
Adron, WHY are you so
defensive?
12:34am
A Ug
You're implying that
I'm excluded from Christ. Read your last sentence.
12:35am
Piano Butch Robinson
He could be excluded
from the Body and you could be too, IF you actively reject the real
and visible presence of Christ's Body - present with Apostolic
reality from the very beginning.
12:36am
A Ug
Haven't you read Acts
11:1-18. If Christ's Holy Spirit is working in you, then you are
saved. His Spirit is working in me.
12:37am
Piano Butch Robinson
What do you think would
have happened to Cornelius if he had refused the Baptism of Peter?
Acts 10:7 ff
12:37am
A Ug
How could Brother Yun
be excluded from the body of Christ and still have Christ working
through His life Sola Scripture. You are making no sense.
Another Disciple would
have baptized him.
It's not Peter alone.
12:42am
Piano Butch Robinson
By Peter I mean the
WHOLE of Apostolic ministry. IF he rejected Peter's Baptism WHY would
he have accepted any of the other founders of the Church Visible upon
the earth? AS to Christ rejecting Yun?
Have you not read of
the day of Judgement when preachers will say, "But Lord, I
preformed miracles in your name, I cast out demons in your name, I
healed the sick." And the Lord says, "Depart from me, etc."
????? Surely you know the scripture. It is a miracle of GRACE when
the Holy Spirit honors the Baptism of a women left lost in an atheist
country, who revives her faith and prays and raises her sick husband,
and impart faith into her son. But were that Son to arrive before the
successors of the Apostles and reject them - that is another story.
12:45am
A Ug
Tell me plainly what
your view of salvation is. How inclusive is it? How much of it is of
Christ and how much of it is of this church you call the TRUE CHURCH.
12:45am
Piano Butch Robinson
You speak error trying
to separate Christ from his own body.
12:46am
A Ug
Come again?
12:46am
Piano Butch Robinson
THINK - PRAY and TRY to
grasp what I am saying.
12:49am
A Ug
Here's what you need to
understand. This needs no commentary. Think it over:
11 For it hath been
declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house
of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.
12 Now this I say, that
every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of
Cephas; and I of Christ.
13 Is Christ divided?
was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
14 I thank God that I
baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
15 Lest any should say
that I had baptized in mine own name.
16 And I baptized also
the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized
any other.
17 For Christ sent me
not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words,
lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect" (1
Corinthians 1:11-17)
I know that I am not
wrong. I am willing to bet my life on it.
12:50am
A Ug
Cephas is one of St.
Peter's names.
12:50am
Piano Butch Robinson
Adron, The Church
visible IS Christ Body (not the totality of it) but with certainty
CHRIST's Body. You talk of salvation as if it can exist outside of
Christ's Body? Can you please show me the text where this is
possible? In that scripture you sight ALL are apostle or successors
of apostles. NONE are radical independent spiritualist.
12:52am
A Ug
I have never stated
that you are not a part of Christ's body, but you seem to believe
that I am not a part of Christ's body because I am not baptized into
St. Peter's successorship. God's Scripture is right in front of your
face and you are rejecting it. How dare you!?
12:55am
Piano Butch Robinson
You are hung up on
"peter's succession" ignoring the rest of the Apostles upon
which Christ gave the governance of the Church, with such power and
authority -
Joh 20:19 Then, the
same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors
were shut where the disciples were assembled, for fear of the Jews,
Jesus came and stood in the midst, and said to them, "Peace to
you."
Joh 20:20 And having
said this, He showed them His hands and His side. Then the disciples
rejoiced when they saw the Lord.
Joh 20:21 Therefore
Jesus said to them again, "Peace to you! Just as the Father has
sent Me, I also send you."
Joh 20:22 And when He
had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive
the Holy Spirit.
Joh 20:23 If you
forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the
sins of any, they have been retained."
12:57am
A Ug
Consider this:
"And said unto
them, Whosoever shall receive this child in my name receiveth me: and
whosoever shall receive me receiveth him that sent me: for he that is
least among you all, the same shall be great.
49 And John answered
and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we
forbad him, because he followeth not with us.
50 And Jesus said unto
him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us"
(Luke 9:48-50)
Careful surface level
analysis of the text reveals that Jesus Christ does not believe that
this random dude is not a part of His body of believers. Delving deep
into the text reveals the same thing.
1:00am
Piano Butch Robinson
I am a minister in
apostolic succession where from my head to Jesus Christ's hand may be
traced only one hundred and forty four people across two thousand
years of time. ALL preaching the same gospel, holding the same faith,
exercising the same authority in Christ's body the Church. Do you
reject this?
1:01am
A Ug
No. have you read the
documents of your 112th person in your precession? How do you know
that you are teaching EXACTLY the same as him?
1:02am
Piano Butch Robinson
Have you not read the
scriptures? Do you not know the writing of the Holy Father's of all
the centuries? Are you ignorant of the Traditions of the Apostles
held and practiced for these many years?
1:02am
A Ug
I asked you a question
that you are not answering.
1:03am
Piano Butch Robinson
The simple answer is,
YES you are ignorant.
1:03am
A Ug
Such kind words
1:03am
Piano Butch Robinson
Ignorance isn't a slur,
it is a condition.
1:04am
A Ug
Well then, thank you
for diagnosing me.
I have one more
question for you. Will you accept it.
1:05am
Piano Butch Robinson
Ignorance - lack of
knowledge, training, or the like.
Ask away
1:05am
A Ug
I didn't ask for a
definition to ignorance.
This is the condition:
1:05am
Piano Butch Robinson
You seemed to need it
since you seem to think it was a slur
How old are you, Adron?
1:06am
A Ug
Excuse me, I'm asking a
question, am I not?
Why does it matter?
I never asked you and
you said that I could ask the questions. So let me!
1:07am
Piano Butch Robinson
Yes, You debate me,
with little respect for a elder, contrary to scripture, with
arrogance and ego from the beginning on my timeline? Yes, it matters.
1:08am
A Ug
You interrupted me.
Paul would wait for a response and then answer back. It was not his
custom to interrupt people. I don't even think that you want to hear
my question.
1:08am
Piano Butch Robinson
How old are you? What
have you experience in life? How has YOUR faith been tested? Have YOU
place your life in danger for your love of Christ?
So you know the soul
and personality of SAINT Paul - does your ego have no limit?
Please - I am not
silent before my master - Adron. Continue.
1:11am
A Ug
Stop interrupting me.
You are only judging me based upon status. John never listed how old
Gaius was in the Third Letter of John, so why is it so important that
you know?
I've read Acts. I know
how he spoke in Athens. I analyzed the situation. But, no, I do not
personally know the Apostle Paul and neither do you.
1:16am
Piano Butch Robinson
I know enough of Saint
Paul that he didn't suffer fools well and when he faced those
pretending to be "of the Church" with no true connection
except their PRIDE he called them mockingly "super-apostles."
So you must be a super-saint, in your two decades of living
comprehending and experiencing more than me in my seven decades of
living. When YOU place your body - your physical LIFE in real danger
for your love of Jesus Christ, contact me and tell me about it. Until
then, what you say is merely theory.
1:18am
Piano Butch Robinson
2Co 12:11 I have become
a fool in boasting; you have compelled me! For I ought to have been
commended by you; for in nothing have I been inferior to the super
apostles, though I am nothing.
1:18am
A Ug
Jesus clearly states
that we are not to call people, "fools," (Matthew 5:22),
but you are implying that I am one. Why??
1:19am
Piano Butch Robinson
Opps you were a little
late. You arrogant young person.
Are you a fool in your
youthful arrogance? That is self evident. One cannot learn when one
is convinced that one already holds full knowledge.
1:21am
A Ug
Why do I get the
impression that the more we respond, the more you type devoid of the
love of God. I never called you a fool or an arrogant one. Now, I'm
afraid that you will type more loveless things.
You haven't convinced
me of anything. But, I have been considering your arguments. You
started out this discussion calling me an intellectual...and now you
have totally swayed---because I have differing beliefs.
You have more-so
insulted me than anything, as of lately.
[This discussion is
over. If you really want the last word, then you can have it. But, I
will not be responding...simple as that]
1:26am
Piano Butch Robinson
THINK Adron, a
Tradition of only one hundred and forty four people - a number that
could sit together in a very small chapel. THIS is my heritage and it
is a heritage connected with the Holy Spirit. Because I challenge
your self-satisfied theology you are increasingly temped to call me
"demonic." You are not demonic, just humanly arrogant,
thinking that your Chinese master is the POPE.
BTW intelligence and
WISDOM are NOT synonymous.
1:26am
Piano Butch Robinson
Are you frightened to
face the truth?
1:29am
A Ug
I am not frightened at
all. I have noticed that you think that I am calling you, "demonic."
I never said that!!! I never called Brother Yun a Pope, either.
You are really good at
setting up "straw-man" arguments. That is a skill that you
should not be proud of. The Apostle Paul was skilled in Rhetoric and
other disciplines, so he would understand.
[But now the discussion
is over. I don't want to see any more straw-man arguments, where you
insult me...without analyzing my case. Stop it!]
1:30am
Piano Butch Robinson
Do you know the
definitions of hyperbole?
1:34am
Piano Butch Robinson
So I use the hyperbolic
terms "demonic" and "Pope" and in fear you resign
the field? Where is your courage, Man? If the Holy Spirit guides your
thoughts or mine, let us discover it, NOW. One of us is in error,
holding the understanding of Christ Body the Church in a truncated
form. And one of us is not in error. Why resign the field before the
answer is clear?
