Wednesday, May 1, 2013

The Law vs Grace: Harmony or Dychotomy

Just had a long conversation with a group of Judaizers, heretics who are even suggesting the resumption of mandatory circumcision and animal sacrifice. The degree of darkness is abysmal. Their cult leader, was unable to speak in his own voice, and constantly quoted scripture ripped from the context of the Heart of God's Love for Mankind. These Judaizers are all over the T.V. circuit, supplanting the Gospel of Jesus Christ - The Faith once and for all delivered unto The Saints, with legalism, upon legalism. They have close ties to the law bound Seventh Day Adventists because of Saturday service. If I had any doubts as to their evil spirit, it disappeared when I told them a wonderful story of God's restoration of an evil Georgia inmate, a con man and gambler. Suddenly the demonic hatred erupted in the face of the testimony of the work of The Lord of ALL LIFE. Don't fall prey to these modern Judaizers. They are neither faithful Jew, nor Christian. They are a CULT.

What is the relationship between The Old Testament Law and the Grace Given Us In Jesus Christ?

 The Grace of Christ and the Law of Moses 
The Apostle John wrote, "The Law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ" (Jn 1:17). The grace of Christ and the Law of Moses are complementary and not contradictory. The following helps explain both. 


Friendship Between Christ and MosesChrist and Moses were friends and conversed as friends. The pre-incarnate Christ gave Moses the Law; in turn, Moses gave it to Israel (Ex- 20:1-26). As the Lawgiver, Christ, not Moses, was the Author of the Law. Moses was His servant. 

In the New Testament , Moses and Elijah appeared with Christ on the Mount of Transfiguration, and they conversed with Him as friend with friend (Mat 17:1-8). The presence of Moses shows Christ as the fulfillment of the Law. The presence of Elijah shows Christ as the fulfillment of the Prophets.

Contrast Between Christ and Moses

Christ is incomparably greater than Moses, for Christ, the Son of God, who brought all creation into existence from nonexistence, is building His Body, The Church. When Christ gave Moses and Israel the Law, He spoke as the Lord their God. Moses, however, spoke to Israel "in the name of the Lord their God," not in his own name (Ex 20:22). When the son of God became incarnate, He continued to speak to Israel, but now directly and not through a prophet. Although during His three-year ministry in Israel, He did works and spoke words in His almighty power, Israel refused to believe Him, their own Lord God. But to those Jews who did believe, He gave authority to become His children (Jn 1:11,12)

Christ also gave authority to believing Gentiles to become His children. In the Old Testament, He made it clear that through Moses and His prophets the Gentiles would be included in the promises to Israel (for example, Gn 12:1-3; Is 49:5,6). Both would be in His Body, The Church. Race is not the issue, but rather faith in Christ. His Body, The Church is ONE composed of every nation, tongue and tribe (Rev 5:9).

Harmony Between Law and Grace:
Christ is the Lawgiver in both Old and New Testaments. Therefore, there is no opposition or contradiction between the old and new laws. In His Incarnation, the Lawgiver Himself fulfilled the old Law, making it obsolete (Heb 8:13 - In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.) 

Christ gave His written Law through Moses to make sin known (Rom 3:20; 7:7). Man's God-given natural law, written in the conscience, was dulled through disobedience in the years between Adam and Moses. The Mosaic Law helped renew this knowledge of sin to lead man to repentance. After His ascension, Christ sent the Holy Spirit at Pentecost to convict the world of sin (Jn 16:8), to renew the natural law in man's conscience (Heb 8:10) to lead us into all truth (Jn 16:13), and to make it possible for us to become partakers of the divine nature (2Pt 1:4).

GRACE FROM THE LAWGIVER:
Christ is the Incarnate Lawgiver who offers us remission of sins through His Holy Cross, HIS PRECIOUS BLOOD. The old Law could never remit sins (Heb 10:1-4). Christ not only forgives sins, but also heals the damage done through sinning. This is the unspeakable grace of the lawgiver.
(The Myth of D.N.A. Slavery - the Struggle for our Healing)

 

"You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.
"Remember the Sabbath Day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: neither you, nor your son, your daughter, your male servant, your female servant, your cattle, nor your stranger who sojourns with you. For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and everything in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore, the Lord blessed the Sabbath Day and hallowed it. 
"honor your father and mother that is may be well with you, and your days may be long upon the good land the Lord your God is giving you.
"You shall not murder.
"You shall not commit adultery.
"You shall not steal.
"You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. 
"You shall not cover your neighbor's wife, or his house, and neither shall you covet his field, nor his male servant, his female servant, his ox, his donkey, any of his cattle, or whatever belongs to your neighbor."

THE SABBATH DAY, SUNDAY, AND THE EIGHTH DAY
The Sabbath Day:
When the Lord commanded the Hebrews, in the fourth of the Ten Commandments, to "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy," He also gave them the reason: "For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and everything in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore, the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hollowed it" (Ex 20:8, 11; cf. Gn 2:1-3). When Moses restated the Ten Commandments in Deuteronomy 5, he added another reason: "Remember, you were a servant in the land of Egypt, and the Lord your God brought you out from there by a mighty hand and by an outstretched arm; therefore, the Lord your God ordered you to guard the Sabbath day and to sanctify it: (5:15). 

The Hebrews were called to "remember" (Ex 20:8), to "keep" (Lv 19:3, 30), and to "hallow" or "sanctify" (Jer 17:19-27; Ezk 20:19,20; Neh 13:15-22) the Sabbath by resting from almost every kind of work. God provided them this sacred time each week to help them contemplate His awesome work in creation and there miraculour deliverance from Egypt. Stipulating the faithful observance of the Sabbath was one of the main ways God ordained to reinforce the people's covenant with Him Ex 31: 12-17: cf. Lv 24:8). Originally, communal worship was not linked with Sabbath observances; but with the development of the synagogue, probably during the Hebrews' exile in Babylon (sixth century BC), the Sabbath naturally became the day for synagogue worship, as it is for the Jews today.


SUNDAY, THE DAY OF WORSHIP
At first, early Jewish Christians continued to observe Sabbath regulations and to worship on the Sabbath (Acts 13:13-15, 42-44; 18:1-4). But they also met for the celebration of the Holy Eucharist on Sunday (Acts 20:7; 1Co 16:1-2), called "the Lord's Day" (Rev 1:10), since Jesus rose on the Sunday. Saint Ignatius of Antioch, in about AD 107, confirms that Sunday was the main day of worship for the early Church: "They have given up keeping the Sabbath, and now order their lives by the Lord's Day instead - the Day when life first dawned for us, thanks to Him and His death."
The Roman Emperor Constantine before he was baptized and became a member of the Body of Christ, in a mercy to Christians honored the Church's practice of celebrating the Lord's Resurrection every Sunday by decreeing, in AD 321, that every Sunday would be a holy day. For Orthodox Christians, Saturday is still the Sabbath, the day on which the church especially remembers the departed, since Christ rested in the tomb on Great and Holy Saturday.


SUNDAY, THE EIGHT DAY
As the day after the seventh day (when God rested from His six days of creation) and as the day of Christ's Resurrection, Sunday early on came to be understood in a mystical way among Christians as the "Eighth Day." It was the day "beyond nature and time", "the beginning of another world". "Whether you call it day, or whether you call it eternity, you express the same idea" said Saint Basil.

Fittingly, during the week after Pascha (Easter), called Bright Week, the church celebrates Pascha for eight days, almost as though it were one continuous day. By tradition, babies are named on the eighth day after birth. And from ancient times, Christian baptisteries and fonts have been built with eight sides, indicating the newly baptized are entering the realm of the Eight Day, the day of eternal rest (Heb 4:1-11) in Christ's Heavenly Kingdom.

The only true worship is from the heart.
No matter how sacred the appearance of the worship, no matter the texts of scripture supporting any legalistic belief, the only true worship is in "Spirit and Truth" by the power of the Holy Spirit magnifying the one TRUTH, the person Jesus Christ who walked among us. "Bring no more futile sacrifices; incense is an abomination to Me. The New Moons, the Sabbaths, and the calling of assemblies - I cannot endure iniquity in the sacred meeting. Your New Moons and your appointed feasts My soul hates." Isa 1:13,14. One must remember that when a spirit other than a sincere heart chose to worship God, God has condemned it from the start. He didn't accept the sacrifice of Cain, and when those not appointed tried to worship God in rebellion, having a form of worship, he destroyed them. ( Lev 10:1,2 - And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the LORD, which he commanded them not. And there went out fire from the LORD, and devoured them, and they died before the LORD."


FAKE WORSHIPERS:
In New Testament times it didn't take long before the "fake worshipers" arrived, trying to turn the Celtic Community (gentile) back to Levitical Law - we see the same heretics present today. To these Judaizers Saint Paul said, "How is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage? You observe days and months, and seasons and years." Gal 4:9-11. 

And as to keeping the Levitical Law, and the other Traditions that had come to be through the Hebrew Priesthood Saint Paul said, ". . . having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances." Eph 2:15 - he was not speaking of the "natural law" confirmed in the Ten Commandments, but the layer upon layer of other "ordinances" given force of law. And again he Saint Paul says, " . . . having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us . . . Therefore let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths. Col. 2:14,16. 

And as we have already stated this is the confirmed teaching of the Apostles and held by their immediate successors, " . . . no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's Day." - Saint Ignatius 105, AD.)

"Their scrupulosity concerning meats, and their superstition as respects the Sabbaths, and their boasting about circumcision, and their fancies about fasting and the new moons . . are utterly ridiculous and unworthy of notice . . And to speak falsely of God, as if He forbade us to do what is good on the Sabbath-days - how is this not ungodly? Letter to Diognetus ( early second century.)

And the Saint Justin Martyr - "Is there any other matter, my (Jewish) friends, in which we Christians are blamed, than this: that we do not live after the Law . . and do not observe Sabbaths, as you do? 

Again: 
You (a Jew) now have need of a second circumcision, although you glory greatly in the flesh. The new law requires you to keep a perpetual Sabbath. However, you, because you are idle for one day, supposed you are godly . . The Lord our God does not take pleasure in such observances. If there is any perjured person or a thief among you, let him cease to be so . . then he has kept the sweet and true Sabbaths of God.

Again: All those righteous men already mentioned, though they kept no Sabbaths, were pleasing to God. (Ante Nicene Fathers volume 1 page 204 for context.)

Again: There was no need of circumcision before Abraham, nor was there need of the observance of Sabbaths, or of feasts and sacrifices, before Moses. Accordingly, there is no more need of them now. +++

What Justin Martyr was explaining saying, "The new law requires you to keep a perpetual Sabbath" - this is what some later describe as "the Liturgy of Living" - in harmony with Saint Paul's admonitions to "pray without ceasing" "to do ALL - the everyday mundane things - as unto the Lord." Where the life itself becomes a living worship of God in word and deed. 

Saint Irenaeus takes up this theme saying:
"You will observe My Sabbaths; for it will be a sign between Me and you for your generations." These things, then, were given for sign . . . the Sabbaths taught that we should continue day by day in God's service . . abstaining from all avarice and not acquiring or possessing treasures upon earth . . However, man was not justified by these things. Rather, they were given as a sign to the people. This fact is evident, for Abraham himself - without circumcision and without observance of Sabbaths - "believed in God, and it was imputed to him for righteousness." (Ante Nicene Fathers vol 1 page 481.)

"Let the one who contends that the Sabbath is still to be observed as a balm of salvation . . prove to us that in times past righteous men kept the Sabbath, or practiced circumcision and were thereby made "friends of God." God created Adam uncircumcised and non-observant of the Sabbath . . Also, God freed from the deluge Noah, who was uncircumcised and did not observe the Sabbath. Enoch, too, He transported from this world, even though that most righteous man was uncircumcised and did not observe the Sabbath . . . Melchizedek also, 'the priest of the most high God,' although uncircumcised and not observing the Sabbath, was chosen to be the priesthood of God. " Tertullian (ante-Nicene Fathers vol 3 page 153.

THE EIGHTH DAY - IN THE ANCIENT CHRISTIAN CHURCH
Saint Barnabas - Saint Paul's missionary companion. "I will make a beginning of the eighth day, that is, a beginning of another world. For that reason, also, we keep the eight day with joyfulness, the day also on which Jesus rose again from the dead. (A.N. Fathers - vol 1 page 147)

Justin Martyr - "Our Lord Jesus Christ rose from the dead on the first day after the Sabbath. Although the first day after the Sabbath remains the first of ALL the days, it is nevertheless called the eighth. 

Saint Cyprian: "Concerning the observance of the eighth day in the Jewish circumcision of the flesh, a sacrament was given before hand in shadow and in usage. But when Christ came, it was fulfilled in truth. For the eighth day (that is the first day after the Sabbath) was to be the day on which the Lord would rise again, enliven us, and give us the circumcision of the spirit. The eight day(that is, the first day after the Sabbath), The lord's day, was foreshadowed."

The mythology that The Church somehow isn't "correct enough" because it worships on Sunday and calls Sunday "The Lord's Day" and that it was somehow introduced to the Church through a pagan source is seen clearly by the Historical Record to be a lie told by heretics and repeated by ignorant men.  As this record above clearly shows, The Eighth Day worship (that is Sunday - the celebration of the resurrection) was from earliest times the norm, the practice of the earliest Christians, as I have demonstrated in their own words above. And as already stated, the Emperor Constantine "recognized" the practice "already in place among Christians" and declared it a national holy day. Sunday - The Eighth Day celebration was the normal practice for Christians for at least 250 years prior to it becoming "official" by the secular government.

--------
References The Orthodox Study Bible - available from Thomas Nelson Publishing Company
The Ante-Nicene Fathers - available from several printed sources and on line from several sources. 









Monday, April 29, 2013

Deliverance vs Arrogance





IF YOU WERE A SLAVE OR A FREED SLAVE WOULD IT BE LOGICAL TO ATTACK AND REJECT THOSE WHO CONSTANTLY PRAYED AND WORKED FOR YOUR FREEDOM?

4/29/2013
Several years ago I had a conversation with an inmate in the Georgia Prisons System who had fallen under the influence of the Chinese House Church founders named WATCHMAN NEE and WITNESS LEE.  I think this is probably the only reason I know who these people are. Witness Lee, actually created the "house church movement" based upon the work of his mentor, Watchman Nee. Watchman Nee owned and worked in a factory in pre-communist China, from what I gather was never a "religious figure" of that time.   The House Church Movement (an underground Christian movement) in communist China is logical. However in its expression in the West and in freer China has of course already splintered into muti-groups and associations and some of them have become very radical.  But the hallmark of all of them is the violent and dogmatic rejection of the Visible (or as they say Institutional) Church, believing that their theological presumptions are absolute truth, and that all realty of THE CHURCH in the free world, the great witness and deposit of the Faith, outside their particular experience is false. They believe there are other Christians, but that no Visible Church upon the earth is truly an expression of The Apostolic Church against which the gates of hell have not prevailed since the time of the Apostles. For them such a prospect, though visibly present, is impossible.

Watchman Nee wrote over one hundred massive volumes of convoluted theology, sixty some odd refined and published in English. His writings brim with an overt spiritualism that is overwhelming page to page. The sheer volume of writing dwarfs the collective writings of the Eastern Saints, known as the Philokalia. It makes prolific Church writers like Origen and Saint Thomas Aquinas look virtually mute.  In his isolated spirituality, creating his own form of Christian belief in pre-communist China he had limited resources and few influences, none that represented the fullness of The Faith once and for all Delivered unto the Saint which is contained in the Church. He like so many cobbled together "a Gospel" not the completeness of "The Gospel." 

Those who experience the presence of the Holy Spirit in prison, are foolish to reject those who have held HIS presence in freedom. For freedom is not Liberty, but rather the furnace of the tempter, where one is able to chose right and wrong in a casual way. Right and Wrong decisions in prison are clearer, and the choices more striking as to what is LIFE producing and what is Death producing.  In "prison states" where Secular States have taken control of Church administrations, like in China, and previously in Russia, the integrity of the institution has to be viewed with suspicion. Even today there are problems with the close ties between some national governments and national Churches. You can't become a successor to the Apostles (a bishop) by killing a Bishop or by a secular government appointing a bishop. But despite the Church's institutional failings her apostolic reality remains. When those Christians who have experienced persecution, who when free turn on those who have maintained the Church in Liberty, it shows a real form of insanity, a post-persecution syndrome, unable to respond to the prayers and works that have helped saved them.

Here is a demonstration of this spirit in a young oriental man, certain that the apostolic church is evil. 



A Ug
Okay, so how is the Greek Orthodox Church different from the Roman Catholic Church? and how so?

11:16pm
Piano Butch Robinson
It would take a book to explain it to you and still you would not understand it, since you have no experience of it. Or do you? Have you had experience of the Roman Catholic Church?

11:17pm
A Ug
Why wouldn't I understand?

11:18pm
Piano Butch Robinson
Answer the question. Have you had experience of the Roman Catholic Church?

11:19pm
A Ug
I attend a Franciscan University...so I have some familiarity with the Roman Catholic Church.

11:21pm
Piano Butch Robinson
So you are not catholic, have never studied the foundations of the Apostolic Church, have spent some time listening to . . . I'm guessing . . . assembly of God or sum such preachers and because you attend a quasi-catholic institution you think you have an understanding of the experience of God in Jesus Christ present in HIS church???

11:24pm
A Ug
I know that I have the experience of knowing Christ. In brother Yun's book, "The Heavenly Man," God was impacting lives in I believe the south-west Chinese area where people were living off of knowing Jesus soley through the Scriptures. Miracles were happening and everything. Then, when various Christian literature and doctrine other than the Bible was incorporated amongst the sola scripture congregation, the body of Christ suffered a huge division. I haven't read the book for a summer, but it is an amazing book...so yes, I am certain.

11:31pm
A Ug
Keep guessing. I do not attend a Assembly of God church. No, I don't trust in an institution. I trust in Christ.

11:33pm
Piano Butch Robinson
I know many people who came to Christ through the scriptures, but when faced with the reality of the physical presence of Christ's Body the Church upon the earth, didn't reject Christ's Bride, rather entered into deeper faith; Just as Cornelius and his household had already received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, but did not reject the Baptism of the Apostles and entry into the visible and apostolic church. There is a sea of "literature" out there - most of it Protestant. But the fullness of the Faith is held in Christ's Church, where HE, Himself breathed the Holy Spirit upon its founders and promised that the gates of hell would not prevail against her. That Church is "apostolic" and not "institutional".

11:35pm
A Ug
I was going to share a silly experience I had. But, I have like 20 minutes to complete this paper.

11:36pm
Piano Butch Robinson
I understand. I'm going to link a paper I want you to read when you have time. Since you are intelligent and already forming theological ideas. It is about the methods of forming those ideas.

11:38pm
Piano Butch Robinson
I wrote this decades ago, but it will give us an framework - maybe even a language to talk in the future.

America's Orthodox Christian Chaplain: The Three Paths of Theology/Spirituality
americaschaplain.blogspot.com

12:13am
Piano Butch Robinson
Adron, I saw that you are into music. Me too. Here is one of several recordings I made a few years back. I love to write music. I have two jazz pieces and another semi-classical piece ready to record, and hope I get to before the Lord calls me home.

Elise Fantasia - Bond Robin Pianist, Composer
www.youtube.com
Takeoff on a theme by Beethoven, written by Bond Robin (aka, Piano Butch, aka Marion Robinson).

12:25am
A Ug
Well, I have to say that your post is really heavy. Good research!

12:29am
Piano Butch Robinson
I read a short bio of Brother Yun's life - a wonderful testimony of the presence of the Holy Spirit, witnessing the reality of Jesus Christ in Atheistic China. God's hand is not shortened. Here is what the Church says about such people:
"Inasmuch as the earthly and visible Church is not the fullness and completeness of the whole Church which the Lord has appointed to appear at the final judgment of all creation, she acts and knows only within her own limits; and (according to the words of Paul the Apostle, to the Corinthians, 1 Cor. 5. 12) does not judge the rest of mankind, and only looks upon those as excluded, that is to say, not belonging to her, who exclude themselves."
Be careful Adron, that in your limited understanding of the reality of Christ's Body upon the earth that you do not "exclude yourself."

12:31am
A Ug
Are you implying that I need to be a part of a certain denomination to be a part of the body of Christ? As long as I am serving Christ, I am in Christ.

12:32am
Piano Butch Robinson
The Church knows nothing of Denominations - that is protestant ignorance.

12:33am
A Ug
Like I have to be a part of an Orthodox church? I know that I can't be a part of the Roman Orthodox Church. I just can't do it. I'll look into int and I'll read your articles, but people like Brother Yun are certainly not excluded from Christ.

12:33am
Piano Butch Robinson

Letters From the Gulag : What is the Church?

lettersfromthegulag.blogspot.com

12:34am
Piano Butch Robinson
Adron, WHY are you so defensive?

12:34am
A Ug
You're implying that I'm excluded from Christ. Read your last sentence.

12:35am
Piano Butch Robinson
He could be excluded from the Body and you could be too, IF you actively reject the real and visible presence of Christ's Body - present with Apostolic reality from the very beginning.

12:36am
A Ug
Haven't you read Acts 11:1-18. If Christ's Holy Spirit is working in you, then you are saved. His Spirit is working in me.

12:37am
Piano Butch Robinson
What do you think would have happened to Cornelius if he had refused the Baptism of Peter? Acts 10:7 ff

12:37am
A Ug
How could Brother Yun be excluded from the body of Christ and still have Christ working through His life Sola Scripture. You are making no sense.
Another Disciple would have baptized him.
It's not Peter alone.

12:42am
Piano Butch Robinson
By Peter I mean the WHOLE of Apostolic ministry. IF he rejected Peter's Baptism WHY would he have accepted any of the other founders of the Church Visible upon the earth? AS to Christ rejecting Yun?
Have you not read of the day of Judgement when preachers will say, "But Lord, I preformed miracles in your name, I cast out demons in your name, I healed the sick." And the Lord says, "Depart from me, etc." ????? Surely you know the scripture. It is a miracle of GRACE when the Holy Spirit honors the Baptism of a women left lost in an atheist country, who revives her faith and prays and raises her sick husband, and impart faith into her son. But were that Son to arrive before the successors of the Apostles and reject them - that is another story.

12:45am
A Ug
Tell me plainly what your view of salvation is. How inclusive is it? How much of it is of Christ and how much of it is of this church you call the TRUE CHURCH.

12:45am
Piano Butch Robinson
You speak error trying to separate Christ from his own body.

12:46am
A Ug
Come again?

12:46am
Piano Butch Robinson
THINK - PRAY and TRY to grasp what I am saying.

12:49am
A Ug
Here's what you need to understand. This needs no commentary. Think it over:
11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.
12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect" (1 Corinthians 1:11-17)
I know that I am not wrong. I am willing to bet my life on it.

12:50am
A Ug
Cephas is one of St. Peter's names.

12:50am
Piano Butch Robinson
Adron, The Church visible IS Christ Body (not the totality of it) but with certainty CHRIST's Body. You talk of salvation as if it can exist outside of Christ's Body? Can you please show me the text where this is possible? In that scripture you sight ALL are apostle or successors of apostles. NONE are radical independent spiritualist.

12:52am
A Ug
I have never stated that you are not a part of Christ's body, but you seem to believe that I am not a part of Christ's body because I am not baptized into St. Peter's successorship. God's Scripture is right in front of your face and you are rejecting it. How dare you!?

12:55am
Piano Butch Robinson
You are hung up on "peter's succession" ignoring the rest of the Apostles upon which Christ gave the governance of the Church, with such power and authority -
Joh 20:19 Then, the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst, and said to them, "Peace to you."
Joh 20:20 And having said this, He showed them His hands and His side. Then the disciples rejoiced when they saw the Lord.
Joh 20:21 Therefore Jesus said to them again, "Peace to you! Just as the Father has sent Me, I also send you."
Joh 20:22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit.
Joh 20:23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained."

12:57am
A Ug
Consider this:
"And said unto them, Whosoever shall receive this child in my name receiveth me: and whosoever shall receive me receiveth him that sent me: for he that is least among you all, the same shall be great.
49 And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.
50 And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us" (Luke 9:48-50)
Careful surface level analysis of the text reveals that Jesus Christ does not believe that this random dude is not a part of His body of believers. Delving deep into the text reveals the same thing.

1:00am
Piano Butch Robinson
I am a minister in apostolic succession where from my head to Jesus Christ's hand may be traced only one hundred and forty four people across two thousand years of time. ALL preaching the same gospel, holding the same faith, exercising the same authority in Christ's body the Church. Do you reject this?

1:01am
A Ug
No. have you read the documents of your 112th person in your precession? How do you know that you are teaching EXACTLY the same as him?

1:02am
Piano Butch Robinson
Have you not read the scriptures? Do you not know the writing of the Holy Father's of all the centuries? Are you ignorant of the Traditions of the Apostles held and practiced for these many years?

1:02am
A Ug
I asked you a question that you are not answering.

1:03am
Piano Butch Robinson
The simple answer is, YES you are ignorant.

1:03am
A Ug
Such kind words

1:03am
Piano Butch Robinson
Ignorance isn't a slur, it is a condition.

1:04am
A Ug
Well then, thank you for diagnosing me.
I have one more question for you. Will you accept it.

1:05am
Piano Butch Robinson
Ignorance - lack of knowledge, training, or the like.
Ask away

1:05am
A Ug
I didn't ask for a definition to ignorance.
This is the condition:

1:05am
Piano Butch Robinson
You seemed to need it since you seem to think it was a slur
How old are you, Adron?

1:06am
A Ug
Excuse me, I'm asking a question, am I not?
Why does it matter?
I never asked you and you said that I could ask the questions. So let me!

1:07am
Piano Butch Robinson
Yes, You debate me, with little respect for a elder, contrary to scripture, with arrogance and ego from the beginning on my timeline? Yes, it matters.

1:08am
A Ug
You interrupted me. Paul would wait for a response and then answer back. It was not his custom to interrupt people. I don't even think that you want to hear my question.

1:08am
Piano Butch Robinson
How old are you? What have you experience in life? How has YOUR faith been tested? Have YOU place your life in danger for your love of Christ?
So you know the soul and personality of SAINT Paul - does your ego have no limit?
Please - I am not silent before my master - Adron. Continue.

1:11am
A Ug
Stop interrupting me. You are only judging me based upon status. John never listed how old Gaius was in the Third Letter of John, so why is it so important that you know?
I've read Acts. I know how he spoke in Athens. I analyzed the situation. But, no, I do not personally know the Apostle Paul and neither do you.

1:16am
Piano Butch Robinson
I know enough of Saint Paul that he didn't suffer fools well and when he faced those pretending to be "of the Church" with no true connection except their PRIDE he called them mockingly "super-apostles." So you must be a super-saint, in your two decades of living comprehending and experiencing more than me in my seven decades of living. When YOU place your body - your physical LIFE in real danger for your love of Jesus Christ, contact me and tell me about it. Until then, what you say is merely theory.

1:18am
Piano Butch Robinson
2Co 12:11 I have become a fool in boasting; you have compelled me! For I ought to have been commended by you; for in nothing have I been inferior to the super apostles, though I am nothing.

1:18am
A Ug
Jesus clearly states that we are not to call people, "fools," (Matthew 5:22), but you are implying that I am one. Why??

1:19am
Piano Butch Robinson
Opps you were a little late. You arrogant young person.
Are you a fool in your youthful arrogance? That is self evident. One cannot learn when one is convinced that one already holds full knowledge.

1:21am
A Ug
Why do I get the impression that the more we respond, the more you type devoid of the love of God. I never called you a fool or an arrogant one. Now, I'm afraid that you will type more loveless things.
You haven't convinced me of anything. But, I have been considering your arguments. You started out this discussion calling me an intellectual...and now you have totally swayed---because I have differing beliefs.
You have more-so insulted me than anything, as of lately.
[This discussion is over. If you really want the last word, then you can have it. But, I will not be responding...simple as that]

1:26am
Piano Butch Robinson
THINK Adron, a Tradition of only one hundred and forty four people - a number that could sit together in a very small chapel. THIS is my heritage and it is a heritage connected with the Holy Spirit. Because I challenge your self-satisfied theology you are increasingly temped to call me "demonic." You are not demonic, just humanly arrogant, thinking that your Chinese master is the POPE.
BTW intelligence and WISDOM are NOT synonymous.

1:26am
Piano Butch Robinson
Are you frightened to face the truth?

1:29am
A Ug
I am not frightened at all. I have noticed that you think that I am calling you, "demonic." I never said that!!! I never called Brother Yun a Pope, either.
You are really good at setting up "straw-man" arguments. That is a skill that you should not be proud of. The Apostle Paul was skilled in Rhetoric and other disciplines, so he would understand.
[But now the discussion is over. I don't want to see any more straw-man arguments, where you insult me...without analyzing my case. Stop it!]

1:30am
Piano Butch Robinson
Do you know the definitions of hyperbole?

1:34am
Piano Butch Robinson
So I use the hyperbolic terms "demonic" and "Pope" and in fear you resign the field? Where is your courage, Man? If the Holy Spirit guides your thoughts or mine, let us discover it, NOW. One of us is in error, holding the understanding of Christ Body the Church in a truncated form. And one of us is not in error. Why resign the field before the answer is clear?


  • A Ug

    Well, now you have a new article. Congratulations! Do you do this with all your facebook conversations for publicity? And I resign, at least for now because it is too late...or should I say early
  • Piano Butch Robinson

    Adron, who are you kidding? YOU resigned the conversation, not me. I merely took from it what my experience had taught me. This is certain . . . you Chinese who think that your experience of Christ's intervention in your slavery is unique and un-connected to the apostolic reality - need to think again and find some humility.
  • A Ug

    Maybe with it being 3:04 A.M, I am a little bit tired now, okay. Yet, you'll post the rest of this conversation anyway without my consent...or maybe you won't so that it will appear on your blog as if you had my consent? Whatever the case, why should I care...anyway/anymore?

    Piano Butch Robinson

    Adron, Corey Ten Boom was a personal friend of mine. I am not unaware of extreme sacrifice under the oppression of Godless authority. Her friend in prison was, Mother Maria of Paris, who I spent decades assuring her recognition as saint. You talk to me of arrogant individualized spirituality and theology - as if the inspiration of those oppressed represents clear theology. I talk to you with the wisdom of those who have sacrificed all. Mother Maria of Paris, a Russian Orthodox Nun, stepped into the line of those heading to the gas chambers in NAZI Germany, took the place of a young woman heading to her death. Mother Maria saved a whore - collaborator with the Germans and a German's bastard child. ALL your talk is theory and self satisfied theologies - where your reading of TEXTS - WE GAVE TO YOU -  is supreme. And the source of that TEXT means nothing. In this you ARE arrogant and a fool.